I wanted to thank every one who commented on the last two posts. I have to admit, when I wrote that post about how despondent I feel about the fate of our nation, I never for one minute considered it might inspire such a heated debate. I also didn’t realize that a mediocre (at best!) Spanish teacher like myself might have so many incredibly thoughtful, eloquent, astute readers. I am humbled by the fact that you come here to read my words.
I will admit, the last few days were intense, and exhausting. I wasn’t mentally or emotionally prepared to engage in a political debate. I appreciate the discourse that took place, but I’m totally exhausted by the energy it required to participate in a meaningful way.
Lately I’ve been feeling awful at the end of the day. My throat hurts and my ears throb and my lymph nodes feel swollen. Every night I wonder if I’m getting sick, but after seven hours of sleep I wake up feeling better. I guess it’s just exhaustion, just my body feeling beaten down by the intensity of the day. I’m really looking forward to the three day weekend as an opportunity to rest, both physically and emotionally.
Thank you again to everyone who came here to comment in the last 48 hours. I appreciated the discussion, and the support. I understand that some of you felt I was remiss in putting up my second post, but I do believe that if I’m unwilling to hear other points of view I am part of the problem (this is surely due to the fact that I don’t participate in social media and don’t have daily interactions with vocal Trump supporters who are uninterested in hearing my point of view).
I continue to believe Trump is a horrible person, and catastrophically bad president. I believe he is irrevocably damaging our country and destroying our planet and that any action (or inaction) that results in his reelection is more of a moral and ethical choice, than a political one. This is not about two parties and their differences. This is about rejecting a man who has no vision for presidency except to further his personal and professional gain. He cares about literally no one but himself. And the amount of destruction and division and despair (and even death, as he continues to ignore the pandemic) that his reelection will reap is terrifying.
Sure I might live near like-minded people who share my views, but I’m still affected by the choices and action (or inaction) of the federal government. My daughter will grow up in a world without Roe vs Wade if the Supreme Court is filled with conservative judges (that in no way reflect the ideological makeup of the country), just like women and girls in every area, urban or rural, of the United States. We all live in a world that is being destroyed by our refusal to protect the environment, and those protections have to be instituted at the federal level, even state regulations aren’t enough and personal choices can never affect real change. This election affects all of us no matter where we live. I hope everyone in this country will look at the big picture, and realize how much is at stake.
If people are not emotionally invested in this election, I do not believe they grasp what is actually happening. Our future hangs in the balance. And no amount of “living near people who think like you” makes that okay.
You made the comment on one of your last points that it is the Republicans that are destroying the American Dream. In my circle, we also feel like the American Dream is being destroyed… by the Democrats. Maybe the American Dream is somewhere in the middle and we are being held hostage by the politicians on both ends. I felt like there have been many thought provoking comments left here and it certainly has caused me to rethink some of my prejudices on the opposite party. Where do we go from here? Is there anyway to reach a middle ground? I really and truly do not know but thank you for allowing me to be here and be apart of the conversation.
Your comment on climate change policy in the last post was really interesting. How else do you think democrats are destroying the American dream?
Why do I think Democrats are destroying the American dream? Maybe for the same reasons Noemi thinks Republicans are. Maybe because our country is so divided right now, because there is so much hatred and fear that we would rather place blame on someone and it’s easier to blame those different from us. I really don’t know…. Once again, I will use my own experience to put this in some context. I live in a very small area where almost everyone is roughly the same. Everyone looks like me. We are mostly the same religion. For the most part, we are the same socioeconomic class. The few poor here are the hillbillies that choose to live in trailers on family land and steal electricity using extension cords that they’ve draped across their property. They could work but they choose not too for whatever reasons and they’ve done so for generations. We still like them and we’ll honk and wave as we go by like everyone else but we sort of always shake our heads and wonder. There’s not much crime here. My parents to this day have never locked their front door and I’m pretty sure their car keys are in the ignition sitting in the driveway. If someone tried to break in, they’d probably leave with plates full of leftovers assuming my parents heard them at all. We have no police force here. We have a sheriff for the county but it’s a big county so we’re lucky if we see him more than once a week out patrolling. Most of our roads are one lane each way with 25-30 miles per hour speed limits. People probably drive too fast but we’re not worried about getting speeding tickets. It’s more likely that you’ll get a call from the mayor asking you to quit waving for the camera and just slow down as you speed by his moveable posted speed cart that he uses to monitor things. I’m not worried about anyone coming on my property because I have a yard full of animals and one of them is a llama with a real attitude problem who hates strangers coming in his space. My own dad won’t come here if we’re not here because getting bit in the butt by a llama is not something he wants to do again. We raise our own animals for meat. Growing up, I never had beef that didn’t come from my Grandpa’s field or milk that I hadn’t scooped out of the milk tank from the milk barn. We grow our own food in the summer, can it to last all winter and generally try to be self sufficient. My husband hunts, kills, and processes the meat that’s in our freezer. We have a gun safe and are responsible gun owners. My kids all know how to shoot and have been through gun safety. We have a lot of creatures that want to kill our animals and sometimes guns are neccessary. Skunks are fast and they will chase you. Raccoons will leap out of trees and claw the heck out of your face. If I have to choose the life of my chicken or that of a skunk, I’ll choose the chicken everytime. When I see some Democrats saying that they will take away all guns, I wonder what that means for people like us who just want to feed our families and kill skunks. I’ve tried to teach the llama with the bad attitude to direct his aggression against the predators but llamas don’t care and my attempts have gone no where, lol. I am not saying I am for the gun violence plaguing America. I am not. I am never going to defend the violence and mass shooting. I’m simply describing a different point of view for those who don’t realize defending chickens from skunks and raccoons is still a thing. I’m concerned that I’m labeled as a racist, homophobic, bigot just because I’m registered to vote Republican. I see the unrest that is going on in America and my heart breaks but for the most part, my little area has not experienced it. It does feel like America is self destructing however and I wonder how long we can go on like this. I myself did NOT vote for Donald Trump but because of him, people want the Republican party destroyed forever. A single voting party would not be good for people like me. I think the people in the big cities have forgotten that there are still us country folk around. Middle America still needs a voice and that voice is usually Republican. When I hear Chuck Schumer state he wants to destroy the filibuster, Biden’s refusal to talk about packing the Supreme Court, rumors of making Washington DC, and Puerto Rico states to pick up Democrat seats, these things matter. Never having a chance for a Republican to win again because people don’t want Trump to win now matters. Politicans are horrible, on both sides. They have so much money that they simply can not understand the people they are supposed to represent. I doubt either Donald Trump or Joe Biden really understand what it’s like to be one pay check away from losing their house or one major illness away from bankruptcy like most of the people in America. Money and power exclude them from the real people of America. And for the record, I am not defending the bad policies of the Republicans. I am simply stating that going forward I would like the option to vote for another one….This is a really long post and I have no answers here. I guess my point is the same one I have been trying to make on the last few posts… that of tolerance for people who might vote differently. Maybe some sort of understanding as to why that might be and maybe some sort of prayer for America as a whole because I’m not sure how we’re going to be ok given any of our current political candidates.
Can I ask, since it’s one of the few actual policies you mentioned, if you think it’s okay for the Republican lawmakers to push through a new Supreme Court justice in October when they wouldn’t hear Obama’s pick in March of his last year? Does that seem fair to you? And if so, can you explain why it’s fair? Because it feels really unfair to me. And I would support the decision to pack the court if Republicans pushed Barrett through when they blocked Garland. If Republican lawmakers just waited and let the next president pick RBG’s replacement (it might still be Trump!) then the Democrats wouldn’t even be talking about packing the court.
I ask because the move you are upset Democrats are talking about making is a direct response to a move by Republicans that is totally unfair. And these are exactly the moves Republican lawmakers are making that cause me to feel so much anger. So if you could explain why this is okay for you (I’m assuming you do think it’s okay since you are upset by the Democrat’s proposed way to level a playing field that Republicans are unjustifiably skewing in their favor) I would appreciate it. I feel like this really gets to the heart of the disconnect.
Should Trump be able to nominate someone? Yes. Obama was able to nominate Garland. It was the Senate Judiciary Committee who was in the wrong by refusing to vote on the appointment. Garland should have absolutely been voted on. By that logic, Trump should nominate, the Senate should vote and she will be put in or she won’t… except we aren’t dealing with logic. We are dealing with Senators and they do whatever you want. Had Trump nominated a liberal would you be ok or should we always wait? I’m of the mind set that whomever is the sitting President at that instance should get to nominate and let the chips fall where they may during the confirmation process. What exactly do you not like about Amy Coney Barrett. Is it just that she is conservative? I know you mentioned you are afraid your daughter is going to grow up without Roe vs Wade. I do not know a single woman in my conservative circles that wants Roe vs Wade overturned. We’re kind of over here scratching our heads as to why this is still an issue or why it keeps getting brought up. The health ramifications of not being able to get an abortion would be huge. No one wants to go back to the time when back alley abortions were being performed in unsafe conditions leading to infection, permanent damage, or death of a woman. None of us want a woman to be forced in situations of rape to not have that choice. Same thing if the health of the mother is a concern. I really don’t know any one lobbying for it to be over turned. Is this really something you think we are pushing for? Who do you think is pushing the narrative? Is it the media?
Thank you for responding. It’s clear that you are getting very different information about a lot of things than I am. I don’t think, with the information we both currently have, we will every truly understand each other on these points.
I will say, that if you really think Roe vs. Wade will be safe on a 6-3 conservative Supreme Court, you are getting VERY different information than I am. But it’s not surprising. The Republican party has been obfuscating the truth to pass policy that isn’t popular for a long time. They will say that it’s not their intent for Roe vs Wade to be dismantled, and they will claim it could never happen, but we’ll both know the truth long enough. What matters after that is if we allow that betrayal of what they said, and what ended up happening, to affect our opinion of the Republican party. My guess is it won’t affect they way you vote in the following election.
You’ve said a lot that makes it clear we have very different fundamental views of the world. I do think I have a better idea of where you are coming from. I don’t believe you have malicious intent toward the people the Republican party hurts, but I also believe you care more about protecting the life you have, than ensuring others are guaranteed the life, liberty and justice they have also been promised by our Constitution. That you would prefer to protect the status quo, which serves you well enough, than enact change that might help others, if you’re unsure how it will affect you.
My guess is you believe I support policy without even considering how it might affect you. And I can understand that is very disconcerting. I will definitely take that point of view into account more as I decide which lawmakers, and policy, to support moving forward.
Before anyone answers, it might useful to understand- When you say “ Is this really something you think we are pushing for? ” who is that we? Rural voters? Republicans ? Someone else?
Before anyone answers, it might useful to understand- When you say “ Is this really something you think we are pushing for? ” who is that we? Rural voters? Republicans? Someone else?
And I guess what I still don’t understand is, if you acknowledge that the Republicans changed the rules when they refused to consider Obama’s pick, only to change the rules again when it suited them, I’m curious why you think it’s unacceptable for Democrats to change the rules when they have control? They are doing it in response to Republican lawmakers flouting of the rules. Or you think it’s okay because a 6-3 conservative Supreme Court is not that big of a deal. You worry that a purely popular vote would not be fair because there are more people in liberal coastal cities than conservative, rural America, but you also don’t think Democrats shouldn’t care that the highest court has twice as many conservative judges, when self-declared conservatives make up about 40% of the population of the country.
I don’t think anything any of the parties are doing is fair and we are all caught in the aftermath. I wish there were one set of rules that they would follow instead of this “I was wronged so now I will wrong you” mentality that we have going for us. I really don’t know… I do thank you for allowing me to post here on your site. I don’t get a lot of interaction with people of the opposite party in real life and I am really trying to understand how it is that we think so differently about the world. Maybe we’ll never know. You have given me quite a lot to think about, though and I thank you for that.
If you want to read some articles on basically everything we’ve been talking about, check out the links in this post from Wandering Scientist. Every Sat she puts out a post with links in it.
https://www.wandering-scientist.com/2020/10/weekend-reading-short-and-late-edition.html
Noemi, thank you for the links and for your conversation here. I have enjoyed it very much. I have been pondering something you said to me a great deal. That you don’t think I hold malicious intent toward others but by trying to protect my way of life, I am essentially harming others. I was honestly taken back by that at first. I certainly don’t want to cause harm to others. It’s also making me wonder how we got here and how we get out of it. Why does protecting ones way of life have to be at the expense of others. I don’t really know. These are probably more of rhetorical questions but I really and truly do wish there was an option of something more in the middle.
This is so interesting. Because I have no faith that Barett, Thomas, Alito, or Kavanaugh will support abortion rights. Not sure about Gorsuch. So from my perspective, Roe v. Wade is VERY much in peril. In fact, the reason why conservatives want republicans to appoint federal judges is so that abortion rights will be curtailed. That said, there are other issues besides abortion that concern me with regard to the court, such as voting rights, environmental protections, and the rights of criminal defendants.
I very much appreciate you speaking on your views so graciously and clearly (llama biting your dad’s bottom!).
What I am hearing, though, is that you have been set adrift by the Republican Party more generally. Those are the folks who nominated Trump and have stood by him. I feel little more hesitant getting into policy with you since you’ve really put yourself out there by writing here, but based on what you have written, I don’t think Republicans have picked their policies because they favor someone like you. They pick them because it favors their large corporate donors. All it does though is kick large looming issues down road when it’s even harder to address.
Thank you for responding! I can see why it is so off-putting and hurtful when liberals paint republicans with a broad brush and make no attempt to understand their lives. I don’t actually think that the policies that democrat lawmakers are discussing would destroy your way of life though. For example, I don’t think anyone is seriously talking about banning hunting weapons. And I think that a shift to electric vehicles would have to provide for allowances and/or subsidies for farmers. But I definitely see how it would be painful to perceive yourself as the butt of liberals’ jokes.
Also, about the filibuster, packing the court, etc., our electoral system is so tilted toward republicans right now. Trump lost the popular vote by over 2% and he still won! The spread in the Senate is even wider. Why shouldn’t the democrats try to even it out? Also, people in DC and PR are citizens so their lack of representation is a travesty.
In the last few weeks I’ve been thinking a lot about your dismay at Biden’s refusal to talk about packing the Supreme Court. Well, the Republicans prevented Obama from filling OVER NINETY federal judgeships (district and appellate, not counting Supreme Court) when he was president and the republicans had control of the Senate. So, that means, that the Republicans have been packing the courts under Trump because they have been able to fill close to 100 judgeships that SHOULD HAVE BEEN FILLED BY OBAMA! And you know what happens when Trump gets to appoint federal judges? They strip away the rights of Americans to vote. Check out the latest opinion by the 5th Circuit Court of Appeals – if a voter’s signature on an absentee ballot is rejected due to a mismatched signature (determined by a county employee with no training in analyzing signatures) the ballot must be rejected and they do not have give the voter an opportunity to prove that the signature matches. This gives counties license to throw out thousands upon thousands of votes without any opportunity to appeal. I’m just so angry and I don’t understand how someone can support the republicans in Congress when this happens. How does granting statehood to Puerto Rico and DC (and giving voting rights to the U.S. citizens who live there) compare to stripping away voting rights of people in Texas? Check out the article on the recent ruling. It is appalling! I’m so angry about this! The republicans are cheaters. They cheated their way to the governorship in Georgia and they are going to cheat their way to the Presidency. https://www.texastribune.org/2020/10/19/texas-mail-in-ballots-signatures/
If Barrett is confirmed, more than half of the current Supreme Court justices will have been appointed by two presidents that did not win the popular vote. The is a fact. How anyone thinks that is fair has a very different understanding of fair than I do.
Virginia: Your kindness in explaining and sharing is much appreciated. I agree One size often does not fit all. Which is where all the political spin and absolute lies are causing so much damage. This is why, historically, compromise was so important in reaching decisions. My way or the highway isn’t a good solution, as a national whole we need to remember that. Climate change is happening and it’s impact is going to increase; we need to implement changes to combat it now. But we need considered implementation that keeps food growing safely, prevents flooding and fire, ends waste, and does not fuel greater divides between haves and have nots. We need equality in access to education, living wage jobs, medicine, water, etc. And we need all of our nation to contribute to making our world a better place for the generations to come. We need to see past divisions to commonalities. Thank you Virginia for expanding understandings.
Noemi: Might your yuck at day’s end be related to the incredibly terrible air we currently are experiencing? I know it gives me headaches and I am not outside in it as much as you need to be.
To you all: I loved the bike stories, and abilities to go without cars. At my age, with my issues, it isn’t safe, and where I need to go is too far to walk and public transportation is effectively non-existent. ( Not in the countryside or the city; and both are outside my pocketbook!) Moving from gas to electric vehicles only impacts part of the issue. We need to factor in the production of the vehicle, the transmission/movement of the fuel from it’s production site to the vehicle, including the creation of the production sites/equipment, and the decommission of the used vehicle and all the production sites. HUGE and all involve power ~~even before we admit the importation of materials, many of which are limited in availablity required in making and consuming electrical power….. And, I haven’t touched yet on the subject of clean water…………
I know, ‘they say’ go green use wind and solar and waves…. but the wind doesn’t always blow, the sun doesn’t shine all the time, and waves are changed by weather also. The can has been kicked down the road a great many times despite scientists saying that is dangerous and creates a bigger problem … and this can is now falling apart.
I would like the children of every parent reading here to have a future that includes freedom to live, love, work, play, and become parents to children who also live good lives. Right now~~ well, it is scary.
Thank you all.
Have you read It Was All A Lie or heard Stuart Stevens speak about his book? I’d recommend, if you have not.
I have a bit of a different take on all of this and I will start by saying that I apologize in advance for the fact that my attitude borders on nihilism. It is clear to me that none of your readers thinks particularly highly of Trump but that many, including myself, simply don’t believe that the Democratic choice will be significantly better. I don’t know if Roe v Wade will be overturned soon and, while I worry about living in a post-Roe world, I would remind everyone that many women in this country are effectively living that reality already. I also know that nobody will be considered for the SCOTUS if they don’t clearly demonstrate a strong bias toward corporate interests above those of working Americans, regardless of whether they are appointed by a R or D (Garland and Kavanaugh served together in DC and voted the same 93% of the time). A Democratic administration is unlikely to do anything meaningful to address climate change because effective measures require a willingness to undermine the interests of donors, something Biden will absolutely not do. I share your concern about the fate of immigrant children who are being horrendously mistreated at our border but I have to remind you that we have been horrendously mistreating children in Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Yemen, Palestine, etc. for decades, regardless of whether the occupant in the White House is red or blue. That we maintain over 800 military bases in the world at an enormous cost – money that could have/could be used to fund health care, education, infrastructure and more in the US.
I’m not saying that there are zero differences between our current political choices but I am saying that they are far less meaningful than we want to believe. I’m also not denying that there are real disagreements between Americans of different backgrounds but I believe that we have far more in common than the limited discourse we engage in would have us believe. In short, I think we should rebel a little against these cultural wars that are generally being used to the advantage of those in power because they are effective at distracting us from many of the things that really matter. In summary, maybe we should hate each other less and the powerful more.
Yes, to this! You’ve stated my thoughts well…